• Hey All! Lately there has been more and more scammers on the forum board. They register and replies to members requests for guns and/or parts or other things. The reply contains a gmail or hotmail address or similar ”anonymous” email addresses which they want you to reply to. DO NOT ANSWER ANY STRANGE MESSAGES! They often state something like this: ”Hello! Saw your post about purchasing a stock for a Safari. KnuckleheadBob has one. Email him at: [email protected]” If you receive any strange messages: Check the status of whoever message you. If they have no posts and signed up the same day or very recently, stay away. Same goes for other members they might refer to. Check them too and if they are long standing members, PM them and ask if the message is legit. Most likely it’s not. Then use the report function in each message or post so I can kick them out! Beware of anything that might seem fishy! And again, for all of you who registered your personal name as username, please contact me so I can change it to a more anonymous username. You’d be surprised of how much one can find out about a person from just a username on a forum such ad our! All the best! And be safe! Jim

Sako Importer History

Sako Collectors Club Discussion Forum

hayseed51

Well-Known Member
While the progression of Sako importers here to the US is pretty straightforward and well known, I've always been curious about the 'whys' and to a lesser extent, the 'whens' of the changeovers. We have a knowledgable group here, and perhaps some interesting stuff can be uncovered. My knowledge of importers to the rest of the world is about zero, but feel free to add what any might know - maybe DW Custer to Aus, for example.

In the US, it went Firearms International, Garcia, Stoeger, to the now owner/importer Beretta.

Most of what I know (or think I know) is centered around the early FI period and is provided by Layne Simpson in his 2 part article in Rifle Magazine (#s 100 & 101 - 1985). Seems to be very well researched, He lists Russ Moure' - FI engineer and designer, Mims Reed of Sako Collectors Association, Jon Sundra, and M Vanninen of Sako as sources. Great article that goes all the way back to Sako's beginning as a repair shop for captured Rusky MN rifles in Helsinki as early as 1919. Some really great history through the period before Sako was in a position to take their fine rifle craftsmanship to the world.

FI's affiliation with Sako began sort of tentatively in 1946, but picked up steam rapidly. A different world then I guess, as negotiatations were directly between Jan Winter, FI founder and Colonel Elias Hyden, Sako's then new managing director. The mfg/import relationship lasted around 25 years, and must have been good for both sides. I think it's fair to say that FI provided a large and hungry market for Sako at a critical time. Think it would also be accurate to say that FI had a considerable influence on the finished (no pun intended) product. Some give and take here, but FI did eventually win out on most items they felt were important to US riflemen - blued metalwork, walnut stocks, machined triggerguards, delete barrel band, sights, and so forth.

In reflecting on the above mentioned article, I wonder if it isn't told with Russ Moure side of it weighing more heavily. It pretty clearly depicts FI as the savior of a then financially struggling Sako. Credit is given to Moure for quite a few design changes and innovations - split ringmounts, L-57 with the then-new extractor and trigger, HB stock design, Monte Carlo stock, and other. Perhaps this is how it all went down, but it might be worthwhile to see if there's another view from the other side of the pond...

What really interests me is what caused Sako to change importers after such a long relationship with FI? I have no clue if it's true, but have heard that FI was purchased by Garcia... Anyone have any ideas about what happened and why? I believe that Col. Hayden's long tenure at Sako's helm ended about the same time and don't know if that might have been a factor or not.

The changeover from FI to Garcia and from Garcia to Stoeger seem pretty muddy. It did make for some interesting 'transition' weapons though. Beretta-et-all's purchase is a little different cat, I guess. I know so little about Sako after about 1970 that I'll leave that to others to comment on...

Thanks for your time, and hope we get some good responses.

Dick
 
Dick!
This is a VERY intersting thread to follow! I have tried to find out what happened in the "transitions" but have found little of substance.
But if you like conpiracies heres a good one for you!! http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=65074
BTW! I have the same difficulties finding out all importers here in Sweden. I know of Calic AB (50xB4s to 70xB4s), Husqvarna (80xB4s-90xB4), Classic AB (90xB4 s), Sako Sweden (2002- ). Please let me know if you know anything more about these and other imporets!
Thanks!
Jim
 
Holy Smokes Jim! I'm gonna have to get out my tinfoil hat. Then, I may not be able to sleep tonight... Hard to imagine that type of tomfoolery way back in 1946, but I guess probably stranger things have happened...

Thanks for the link though. That's what you call intriguing. Dick
 
Hey Dick! Missed this thread from several weeks ago. You missed one Sako importer: Rymack. Yes, this fictitious company is listed by the outrageously inaccurate Fjestad Blue Book as a Sako importer. I scratched my head over this one for years, knowing it was erroneous, but having no idea where it could have originated. Then it dawned on me: "Rymack" is a corruption of Riihimaki! This reference is found in the 1999 Blue Book (and in others). Whether it continues in later editions I can't say because I long-since quit buying such a collection of misinformation as that publication represents.

Insofar as the discussion Jim pointed out over on the Gunbroker forum, well, it makes nice fireside story telling, but it is so full of holes as to be not credible. For instance, it skips straight from Garcia to Beretta, leaving the almost two decades of Stoeger importation completely out.

I was told in person by Mr. Timmerman, the former president of Garcia Sporting Arms, that he was personally involved in getting Sako distribution into the hands of Stoeger. Garcia and Beretta were connected only to the extent that Garcia Sporting Arms, during its brief existence, was also the importer for Beretta guns. Berettas had previuosly been handled by J.I. Galef, never by Firearms International.
 
Interesting, Stonecreek. So Mr Timmerman didn't strike you as a spy-master then huh?

I guess I'm still not too clear about the FI to Garcia changeover. If Garcia did in fact purchase FI, that would make the most sense to me. The twenty or so years of Sako -FI partnership must have been really good for both companies. Sort of put each other on the map. It sounded to me like it was as much the result of the personal relationship between Sako's Colonel Hyden and FI's Jan Winter, along with maybe Russ Moure that made things click. Between them they came up with a standard against which many other rifles are judged.

Anyway, I do find it interesting. Thanks for your comments.

Dick
 
As I recall the conversation, Mr. Timmerman told me that he retired from the military after putting in his "twenty", after which he found a position as a mid-level executive with Garcia, which at the time was mostly selling fishing reels. After he had been there a few years, one of the top brass of the company came into his office and said to run home, pack a bag, and meet at the airport for a quick trip to Florida. He mostly sat outside the room where he was aware of some type of negotiations going on, and when his bosses emerged they told him he was going to be the president of the new Garcia Sporting Arms division. He said that they assumed since he had been in the military he would know a lot about guns -- but he admitted that is knowledge and interest in guns was limited. Nonetheless, his new assignment was to import and sell guns.

This conversation took place five our six years ago and was due to my anwering an ad he had placed in the local newspaper to sell a Sako Mannlicher. I would have liked to have visited with him much longer, but did not want to impose excessively on his time. I purchased from him the Mannlicher and a P72, both new, as well as a very unusual Swedish stainless steel pump shotgun which one of his buyers had brought back from a trip to Europe as a prototype with the prospect of adding it to the Garcia line. These were all the guns he had from his days at Garcia, and judging from his age and the appearance that his wife might be ill, it was obvious that he was trying to clear out household items that were simply a burden should they have to move to a retirement facility. I think I recall him saying something about keeping a couple of shotguns and that he or his son might perhaps go bird hunting on occassion. Although he lived modestly in a middle class neighborhood, he appeared to be quite financially secure as you would expect of a retired executive of a large corporation.

Regarding the P72, he told me that he was very dubious that Garcia could successfully market a .22 that had to carry an MSRP of close to $500 back in the mid-70s. I guess he was right.

I do recall his phone ringing a couple of times while we visited. He checked the number on the caller ID and ignored the calls, saying they were just brokers hounding him to invest in one thing or another. That story was quite credible, but maybe those calls really were from middle-Eastern spooks and Russian gun-runners. I doubt it.
 
Thanks for shareing the story and insight. You're fortunate to possess those rifles of such interesting provenance. I'm a bit jealous, but I guess it gives us something to shoot for.
 
What made a big difference with the time was that after Col Hyden, the parent company Nokia

put people in charge who had no feeling for firearms and the only task was to produce and sell as much as possible. Personal relations established during the Hyden years vanished and other criteria

became important. As is usually the case when multinational companies with core business far from

firearms try to run a gun company. - Eventually Sako started to get a lot of positive feedback and help

regarding the US market from the in the 80-s established Sako Collectors Association with guys like

Mims Reed and Jim Lutes. - For them it seems to have been pretty much an uphill battle and with the

time they lost interest in Sako and rumours said that Mims Reed got rid of all his Sakos and started

something with Dakota??

Fact remains that many people (at least of the older generation) value their old Sakos ( "pre Spaghetti

quality") much more than the new ones.

I inherited from my grandfather a Deluxe 308 and a .222. Both from the early 60xB4s. The movement of the bolt in those rifles can not be compared to present day production. I got a 30-06 Cassic and a

.375H&H Safari 83 and 84 and even those have still the old Sako appearance and the movement of

the bolt is extremely smooth.

The present situation with the "Beretta Culture" dominating is not necessarily good for Sako as the

Shotgun culture is quite different from the Rifle culture. Not to talk about the difference of the Italian and Finnish culture...

Stay healthy!

Waidmannsheil, SS
 
SS -

Thanks for weighing in on this. I imagine your comment regarding Col Hyden's successor is probably right on the money. We know from Stonecreek's conversation with Mr Timmerman that he was much more a manager type than a gun guy, so I guess the same happened on the supply side. To some extent I think this was just a product of the times - competition was fierce and US monetary situation was in an uproar. Realistically, I don't suppose it could make financial sense for a little Finnish company to try to continue to produce rifles the way the had for the last 25 years - basically close to hand made. Something had to give.

Really, as badly maligned as Garcia rifles are by some people, and with the manager and bean-counter types whipping away for production and efficiency, it sort of amazes me what nice rifles they are... Even the M72s. I'm sure that's only because it was the same fine craftsmen actually doing the hands-on work. I suppose they were hussling though.

It would be interesting to know how many man-hours were allowed to produce a particular rifle, say a standard grade L61, as a comparison between 64 and 74...?

Dick
 
Here's a brief take on the Nokia ownership that Bearshead, one of our members from Finland, recently shared with me, and I quote:
"..Sako was owned by Nokia till 1999. Nokia's then CEO, Jorma Ollila, liked tennis but not guns, and he put Sako on an auction block. Beretta was Europe's leader in shotguns but they had no rifles. They bought Sako. Jorma Ollila wanted to concentrate in developing mobile phones and sold all other sidelines. (Ollila is now Chairman of Shell)"
Bee Smith
 
bsmith,
I also do believe that to be true. He may have had more of a vision for the future cell phone industry other than just the dislike for guns. In Finland the use of cell phones connected a country that had very limited, and expensive land line service. The time was ripe for NOKIA to shift their product strategy, and Beretta was more than willing to gobble up Sako.
S-A
 
In the (good) old days after the war there was still a lot of officers being employed by the industry in

Finland (Hyden being one of them). They looked with pride on a company like Sako.This was also a case in point with Nokia (owner of Sako) whose core business was with the Sovjet Union and Sako

was used as a marketing tool for Nokia. Any important customers/guests visiting the company were taken to the Sako factory and many of them got Sako rifles as presents ( incl 3 US Astronauts who had been on the moon). If Sako made a profit, it was not from selling hunting rifles, but from extensive orders by the Finnish army (Finnish "Kalashnikovs") year after year. In those days most of the board of Nokia were keen hunters and were proud of the subsidiary producing hunting rifles.

To simplify matters somewhat, things started to change for Sako when the Finnish Army due to political decisions placed huge orders with China instead of with Sako (bilateral agreement; price)

and a new generation (the IT -and Telecom guys) took charge in Nokia. - These guys were not hunters

and most of the old core business including everything outside telecom and mobile phone business was sold out. Sako had never been a "gold mine" for Nokia, so as soon as Ollila became Chairman he

reached a deal with Valmet (who also tried to get rid of their shotguns, and semi automatic hunting-

rifle). The new company Sako-Valmet was established in the mid 80xB4s on a 50/50 basis. Eventually the shotgun production was sold and moved to Marocchi in Italy, whenas Sako went to Beretta but remained in RiihimxE4ki, Finland.

There is a quite interesting Sako history book 1921-1971 which IxB4m not sure if it has been translated to English.

Keep well., SS
 
SS!
Thank you very much for your very very interesting posts!! Really good reading!
As a matter of fact there is an English translation in form of a booklet. It came with the book itself.
I have a copy of both in my library! They do show up from time to time. I have seen them on sites in Finland and elsewhere!
BTW! Did a quick google search and found this:
http://www.klinebooks.com/cgi-bin/kline/10412.html
Who is first to get it???:bigsmile3: Let us know!!
Jim
 
Jim,
Someone who can read a little Finnish :angel2:. Didn't see that it came with the English translation. No worries.
S-A
 
Jim,

ThatxB4s the one!

SS


There's also a list of big shots visiting Finland and receiving Sako rifles as gifts. Lyndon Johnson was one of them.......ds
 
Well S-A -

Looks like you've got your marching orders... How long do you think before you've got the translation done for us?
t.gif


Dick
 
Dick,
I've cut a deal with Jim - no worries. Also I was just going to let Jim know that I have received the Finnmark newsletters in the mail today courtesy of douglastwo when I caught your post. I'm going to scan them and get them on their way to Jim ASAP. Hope my files fit on a CD. Talk about marching orders:bigsmile3:
S-A, Keeper of The Sako Grail!
 
During the mid and late 80xB4s a guy called Louis Palmisano established good relations with the Sako

management and convinced them to start manufacturing the 6mm PPC as well as the 22 PPC.

They were made in heavy barrel, single shot versions and as standard "Hunters".

I got one in 6mm PPC, heavy barrel, which with a Sierra boattail bullet is by far the most accurate rifle I ever shot. - These calibers were used extensively in Finland by bench rest shooters and also by hunters. I can also remember that US gun writers wrote enthusiastically about the PPC rifles from

Sako. - Maybe I am wrong, but I have the feeling that something must have gone wrong with the marketing of the Sako PPCxB4s, since I very seldom today read anything about them.

SS
 
SS -

The Sako PPCs may just have been ahead of their times. Nowadays, Savage, of all companies, has finally gotten some pretty good traction with a similar purpose built series of rifles. It sure didn't happen overnight either, but factory class benchrest has really bloomed as a result.

The potential of the PPC chambering is unquestionable - It's dominance of the short range BR game for decades is testiment to that. However, it does require more than an average amount of reloading skills and patience to produce uniformly excellent ammo that is capable of using the rifle to it's potential.

Shooting skills and bench disipline are also a very big factor that's often overlooked or taken for granted when judging a rifle. The only Sako PPC that I personally know of that sold in my area back in the day fell into the hands of a guy who was just expecting "magic". His reloading and shooting skills were only about average, and he was unwilling to learn or change. He pretty quickly decided he had a "bad barrel". I later heard he had sold it at quite a loss. Wish I would have been on the ball on that, but managed to miss out.

Anyway, congrats on your rifle. I hope to caretake one some day myself. Dick
 
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