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Sako Solving the 'Australian Sako' mystery

Sako Collectors Club Discussion Forum

caberslash

Active Member
Hi all,

I'm sure some on here are aware of the 'Australian Sako' basically a variation on the bolt shroud assembly which appeared to be very different from early L-series Sako's exported elsewhere, basically looking like a recessed bolt shroud with shorter firing pin/cocking piece assembly. See below:

03-bolt-cocked-jpg.2125


Images lifted from this earlier thread: https://sakocollectors.com/forum/threads/l61r-bolt-shroud.7091/

Whilst re-reading Stuart Ottesons excellent book, The Bolt Action Volume 1 (full text is here,for free! https://archive.org/details/SOttesonTheBoltActionRifleVolI also contains interesting analysis of the L-461 action), a passage in the chapter on the Remington 700 section leapt out at me (page 129).

Screenshot 2020-12-25 at 19.35.48.png

I hope this is of some interest to our Aussie contingent, who may already be aware of the reasoning behind the unique design that was exported to Australia. I doubt this is some form of headspace verification.

I for one am aware that an old method of carrying a rifle (I would never ever promote this, or even inform a new/young shooter that it was possible) was to have the bolt de-cocked on a live round. Yes, holding the trigger down whilst closing the bolt to leave the exposed firing pin touching the primer.

Reasoning was that it was somehow faster to only re-cock the bolt by working the handle compared to carrying on an empty chamber and racking a live round, yet it was somehow considered safer than carrying with a live round in the chamber, safety catch engaged. I became aware of this 'technique' when an old hand stated that someone was killed when their rifle, carried in this de-cocked condition, hit the deck due to a broken sling, and fired a round into their back.

I can't fathom why someone would want to override the safety in such a way and then carry the rifle slung (with a crap sling to boot!) rather than in hand. It defies logic, but thankfully it is not encouraged anymore. One may say that the rifle should not have gone off, but by practising such a 'technique' they were staring into the abyss anyway!
 
Hi Guys,
This is a great thread, plus all the links, great knowledge from members, especially from the “locals” who really know their Sako rifles.
I have L461 with the long extractor and bolt shroud, and with the “M”, and long extractor with the normal! Shroud.
You can always gain more knowledge from members on the site, look foward to more comments on this subject.
Jay
 
Great information, Caberslash! I always assumed that the "Australian" cocking piece had to do with some safety regulation but had never seen any documentation of this. Thanks for posting and thanks for the link to the Otteson book.

I wonder why Sako did not adopt this same extended bolt shroud for all of its actions? It was not until circa 1978 that the fully shrouded bolt came along. By the way, Remington 721/722's and earlier Rem 700's had the rear of the striker exposed in the same way, but lengthened the bolt shroud similarly on later actions. (It took them several more years to fix the faulty trigger/safety, however.)
 
Great information, Caberslash! I always assumed that the "Australian" cocking piece had to do with some safety regulation but had never seen any documentation of this. Thanks for posting and thanks for the link to the Otteson book.

I wonder why Sako did not adopt this same extended bolt shroud for all of its actions? It was not until circa 1978 that the fully shrouded bolt came along. By the way, Remington 721/722's and earlier Rem 700's had the rear of the striker exposed in the same way, but lengthened the bolt shroud similarly on later actions. (It took them several more years to fix the faulty trigger/safety, however.)

@stonecreek , the Otteson book has some really in-depth info about the L461 (telling that he only reviewed that one instead of the entire L-series lineup). Especially regarding firing pin protrusion, where a greater extension actually leads to a weaker strike (makes sense when you think about it).

In theory an adjustment that allows the user to regulate firing pin protrusion is great as you can account for wear or a minute difference in headspace dimensions following a rebarrel (Otteson does not favour the L-series due to restricted case head support from the extractor, instead favouring the 700 series and the recessed bolt nose). But I can see why the feature was deleted. Sadly the 'user' part of the user manual is often the weak link (worse still for trigger adjustment!) and it is no good at all if you can't read it!

Feels good to provide the forum with a concrete source explaining the unusual Australian Sako's, a subject that I was ignorant of until I found it on here.

Now I just need to find the blueprints of Howa's Dickson Golden Bear and compare the dimensions with those of the Sako L61R ;)
 
This is an interesting thread, caberslash; thanks for posting it. I'm a little unclear, however, about the "Australian Sako." Is it your understanding that, for the rifles exported to Australia, Sako lengthened the bolt sleeve so that the cocking piece remained completely inside on firing (or decocking)? Or that they shortened the cocking piece/striker assembly to achieve the same effect? I'm guessing the latter. Remington went with the first alternative, and made all 700s this way after 1968, regardless of their ultimate destination. I gather, from stonecreek's post, that Sako didn't modify their L-series actions outside of those destined for Australia (something they probably should have done), instead introducing the fully-shrouded A-series models in 1978.

As I understand it from Otteson's book, the firing pin protrusion can be easily adjusted in the L461 action at least, and probably in all L-series actions. As you say, Otteson notes the Sako's incomplete cartridge-head encirclement--because of the extractor and ejector slots--as a potential weakness of the design (at least in comparison with the Remington 700 action). Evidently, Firearms International (Sako importer) suggested that Sako go with a plunger ejector (which would eliminate one opening of the bolt-rim wall), something they didn't do, at least in the L-series actions.

Interestingly, and somewhat ironically, many custom gunmakers using the Remington 700 action replace the tiny Remington extractor with a Sako one (seen as more reliable), thus reducing the 700's strong gas-handling capability.

Despite his concerns regarding the incomplete cartridge-head encirclement, Otteson's summary of the L461 action is generally pretty favorable. He writes:

"The basic action has never really been updated since it was designed during World War II. It is too successful....It has attained a popularity that makes Sako's main problem one of keeping up with demand."

I strongly recommend both of Otteson's The Bolt Action volumes for all serious students of rifle actions. Volume II covers 17 additional actions, including a few more-recent ones. These two volumes go into the engineering aspects of rifle actions in a way no other source does.
 
Last edited:
I
Hi all,

I'm sure some on here are aware of the 'Australian Sako' basically a variation on the bolt shroud assembly which appeared to be very different from early L-series Sako's exported elsewhere, basically looking like a recessed bolt shroud with shorter firing pin/cocking piece assembly. See below:

03-bolt-cocked-jpg.2125


Images lifted from this earlier thread: https://sakocollectors.com/forum/threads/l61r-bolt-shroud.7091/

Whilst re-reading Stuart Ottesons excellent book, The Bolt Action Volume 1 (full text is here,for free! https://archive.org/details/SOttesonTheBoltActionRifleVolI also contains interesting analysis of the L-461 action), a passage in the chapter on the Remington 700 section leapt out at me (page 129).

View attachment 21260

I hope this is of some interest to our Aussie contingent, who may already be aware of the reasoning behind the unique design that was exported to Australia. I doubt this is some form of headspace verification.

I for one am aware that an old method of carrying a rifle (I would never ever promote this, or even inform a new/young shooter that it was possible) was to have the bolt de-cocked on a live round. Yes, holding the trigger down whilst closing the bolt to leave the exposed firing pin touching the primer.

Reasoning was that it was somehow faster to only re-cock the bolt by working the handle compared to carrying on an empty chamber and racking a live round, yet it was somehow considered safer than carrying with a live round in the chamber, safety catch engaged. I became aware of this 'technique' when an old hand stated that someone was killed when their rifle, carried in this de-cocked condition, hit the deck due to a broken sling, and fired a round into their back.

I can't fathom why someone would want to override the safety in such a way and then carry the rifle slung (with a crap sling to boot!) rather than in hand. It defies logic, but thankfully it is not encouraged anymore. One may say that the rifle should not have gone off, but by practising such a 'technique' they were staring into the abyss anyway!

It's pretty common to carry a rifle in this manner in the area I lived in in Australia. Pull the trigger and close the bolt whilst pointing in a safe direction. Like to hear more about why it's unsafe. On my Sako, the working pin is in no way able to make contact with the primer however in retrospect can se show it could lead to issues for a number of reasons. Generally, I carry no bullet in the pipe and rack a round an then once have a spent round I leave it in there. When I need to shoot I rack and eject the spent round and load to fire. Cheers for sharing this. Most fellas seem to know this but yours is a little more clear .and has a few more minor details which is great.
 
It's pretty common to carry a rifle in this manner in the area I lived in in Australia. Pull the trigger and close the bolt whilst pointing in a safe direction.

Is there an argument for why that method might be preferred over having a round in the chamber, cocked, and on safe?

-Chris
 
Like, you're not running around with a loaded gun?

Well, sure, but...

That suggests a round in chamber and an uncocked bolt... is safer than round in chamber, bolt cocked, safety on.

Is that actually true?

On all rifles, not just Australia-delivered rifles where the bolt shroud is shorter than the bolt sleeve?

-Chris
 
I
It's pretty common to carry a rifle in this manner in the area I lived in in Australia. Pull the trigger and close the bolt whilst pointing in a safe direction. Like to hear more about why it's unsafe.

Aye, but what I am referring to is having a live round chambered then de-cocking the firing pin as you just described (at this point there will be nothing holding the firing pin back, so it will be proud and potentially resting against the primer.

As for why someone would want to do this instead of using the safety... some like to think they are smart and have found a novel or 'better' way of doing things.

I believe all the trigger safeties on the L-Series Sako's which used the No.4 trigger also blocked the firing pin. Whilst it is not a complex mechanism ( very similar to a Mauser trigger) it still allows for some pull weight adjustment and for me a two-position safety which locks the bolt is infinitely preferable to a three-position unit.

Those who don't use the 'safety' on their rifle, fine if you don't need to. But doing something else instead is like putting a brick on the accelerator of your car and jamming a rod behind it to limit pedal travel, instead of using the perfectly capable cruise control that your car came with.

If something were to go wrong, try explaining why 'your way' is somehow preferable to the system designed by the manufacturer. Even a trainee lawyer or 1st year law school student would be able to tear apart your argument. Look at the Remington trigger re-calls (which centred around the guns going off while 'on safe'), if the prosecuting side were to admit that their client was not using the product as the manufacturer intended and instead applying 'the way I do it', then they would have no case.

That being said I am sure we are all responsible adults on here and won't be breaking the rules of firearm safety which can prevent such mishaps.
 
Just to clarify......

I'm pretty sure that:

1. The L series no. 4 trigger assembly safety blocks the trigger lever, and locks the bolt handle down, when in the "on" position.

2. A "lowered" firing pin WILL rest on the primer surface of a chambered live cartridge..........with 0.050"-0.060" of firing pin travel remaining.....under about 24 lbs. of spring pressure.
 
Is there an argument for why that method might be preferred over having a round in the chamber, cocked, and on safe?

-Chris
It's considered safe but fast to cock the bolt. To cock the firing pin and make ready to shoot, you just lift the bolt and drop it and she's good to go. Warning for anyone reading this. If your firing pin is sticky, gets held up or has an unknown issue, there is a chance that it can drop late and fire. You MUST point in a safe direction and hold it accordingly.
 
It's considered safe but fast to cock the bolt. To cock the firing pin and make ready to shoot, you just lift the bolt and drop it and she's good to go. Warning for anyone reading this. If your firing pin is sticky, gets held up or has an unknown issue, there is a chance that it can drop late and fire. You MUST point in a safe direction and hold it accordingly.

That's correct, as I said, it's considered safe. I prefer to roll with an empty chamber where possible and I use my safety. Once I fire a round I don't eject the round and I put the safety on. Before I shoot, I eject and rack. We do a lot of varmenting and it works fine.
 
Aye, but what I am referring to is having a live round chambered then de-cocking the firing pin as you just described (at this point there will be nothing holding the firing pin back, so it will be proud and potentially resting against the primer.

As for why someone would want to do this instead of using the safety... some like to think they are smart and have found a novel or 'better' way of doing things.

I believe all the trigger safeties on the L-Series Sako's which used the No.4 trigger also blocked the firing pin. Whilst it is not a complex mechanism ( very similar to a Mauser trigger) it still allows for some pull weight adjustment and for me a two-position safety which locks the bolt is infinitely preferable to a three-position unit.

Those who don't use the 'safety' on their rifle, fine if you don't need to. But doing something else instead is like putting a brick on the accelerator of your car and jamming a rod behind it to limit pedal travel, instead of using the perfectly capable cruise control that your car came with.

If something were to go wrong, try explaining why 'your way' is somehow preferable to the system designed by the manufacturer. Even a trainee lawyer or 1st year law school student would be able to tear apart your argument. Look at the Remington trigger re-calls (which centred around the guns going off while 'on safe'), if the prosecuting side were to admit that their client was not using the product as the manufacturer intended and instead applying 'the way I do it', then they would have no case.

That being said I am sure we are all responsible adults on here and won't be breaking the rules of firearm safety which can prevent such mishaps.
The #4 Sako trigger safety does NOT block the firing pin!
 
That's correct, as I said, it's considered safe. I prefer to roll with an empty chamber where possible and I use my safety. Once I fire a round I don't eject the round and I put the safety on. Before I shoot, I eject and rack. We do a lot of varmenting and it works fine.
I'm not aware of any L series Sako that one can put the safety in the "on" position unless the rifle is "cocked". So, curious how you get the safety to go on with a fired case in the chamber?
 
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