Ammunition integrity during firing process.

Discussion in 'General Sako Discussions' started by Devareaux, Jun 25, 2021.

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  1. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    Yes sir, that is completely understood. I used those numbers for simplicity sake.
    What you have posted is useful information and maybe a good example of how this thread should go. Thanks for that!

    Hippie
     
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  2. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    Love the sectioning photos. Thank you very much for posting that and the information.
     
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  3. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    That's actually very interesting. I didn't take into account copper fouling on thin jacketed copper bullets with lead cores. There might be something to what you said. Copper fouling would further increase already tight tolerances, and with all the pressures involved, etc. I think you might be on to something here. I'll have a test at the range., I have some fouling from an older AV 30-06, although it isn't a varmint rifle, maybe I can recreate some of the known issues. Thank you for posting this.
     
  4. ricksengines

    ricksengines Sako-addicted

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    Let me add an additional comment. The cross sectional pics that are posted really tell the tail. Only the XTP will fly straight and true. Followed by the VMax. All others will have stability problems. Some more so than others. Excellent cross sectional pics.

    rick
     
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  5. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    Well melting might be the wrong word to use. It's definitely affecting it's structure, because we have observations of it turning literally to dust mid flight. It's not shearing, it's not cracking off and flying in chunks, it's turning almost to a mist, similar to boiling water in freezing temperatures, visually anyway. We have also recovered larger calibers like Holland and Holland rounds, not just varmint rounds, that are completely fragmented like large sand particles. This doesn't happen due to shearing or cracking.

    Anywho, if you're tired of the conversation, it's amazing how you can just stop participating in a thread. No one asked you to be here, so please keep your negative comments to yourself and participate in other threads where you find them more to your liking.
     
  6. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    People tend to think that the heat that's involved in cartridges, is happening too fast to make any difference, but I'm not sure I agree with that. And the example giving is wave your hand over a lighter flame. Well, try putting some flammable gases in a bottle, light it up with your hand in the way, and you'll see when pressures are involved, you WILL get burned, despite how fast the heat must transfer during such a short amount of time. And I believe that is so because the heat transfer coefficient is different under high pressure. "More air pressure causes better heat transfer because of convection more importance. Higher pressure causes less heat transfer resistance and maximum temperature" Proceedings of the 'World Congress of Engineering'"(http://www.iaeng.org/publication/WCE2010/WCE2010_pp1444-1447.pdf).

    What I'm getting at, is that at certain pressures, which is maybe why Varmint rounds are so adversely affected, something fishy is going on with heat transfers and it's not just the velocities or ultimately the RPMs, because we have certain rounds in larger calibers that are going at the same velocities, and we aren't able to always recreate these situations. Maybe the lead isn't melting, but we know for sure the plastic tips were melting, because Hornady did a study about it. And I'm not sure what those fancy pants plastic polymer tips melt at, but I'm sure it's a pretty high temp these days, so lead isn't far off from it. We have observable evidence and manufacturers that are posting studies and changing entirely they way they manufacture certain products, due to heat issues. Hornady is one of them, and Berger is the other, that I know of so far.
    Also, we started putting carbon tips at the nose of certain aircraft because of these known issues of heat during flight. "On the other hand, the SR-71 could fly at over 1,910 kts, which gives a ram rise of 482 °C. The air doesn't get much colder as you climb to the altitudes where the SR-71 flew, so this gives a total air temperature of over 400 °C" 1,910kts is about 3,200fps. That's 752 F at those speeds. So now we see how bullet coefficients affect it's temperatures during flight. Now when pressures are present, it increases the heat transfer by reducing the heat resistance. So we have some very unstable conditions with modern rounds that people are not taking into consideration.
    (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/29/hornadys-big-announcement-eld-x-heat-shield-tip/)
    (https://kestrelmeters.com/pages/g1-g7-ballistic-coefficients-what-s-the-difference)

    Many other affects happen during subsonic and supersonic flight, such as shock and a change in direction during supersonic flights, but that's another discussion.

    I don't know about you guys, but I want the safest most effective rounds being shot from my Sakos. It's not easy keeping these things active and also keeping them in top notch shape. People may not like this thread and that's fine, they can just stop visiting it. Those of us that want to figure out some great ammo and understand more about the physics behind what we are doing with our out of production Sakos, please keep posting information, even if you think it isn't relevant, because it might just be very relevant.

    I know for sure that the lead free copper bullets don't seem to have these problems, and the Partition Rounds were created to get around this problem. I can't afford to shoot copper all the time, but I have replaced my lead rounds with copper rounds for hunting because of these issues we're talking about, with the exception of Partition rounds. The Integrity of certain rounds, even in larger calibers like the .300H&H, aren't dependable to my satisfaction. I don't like seeing recovered bullets with significant mass loss due to bullet failure during trajectory. When it comes to varmint rounds, I've seen my buddy try to clear out some ground squirrels and I watched his round vaporize within 50 yards. That's unacceptable. I've seen match competitions where guys were watching their rounds vaporize before impact, that's unacceptable.
     
  7. CerebralDistortion

    CerebralDistortion Well-Known Member

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    My involvement in this thread is purely that you Sir, are telling lies and spreading fallacies citing anecdotal observations as evidence.

    You seem to lack the basic understanding of physics, and to some part chemistry, as well as knowledge about material properties to draw the correct conclusions from your observations.

    If you can not handle "negative comments" when you are at fault, then maybe you should not post anything about it in the first place?
     
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  8. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    Well go argue with Hornady, Berger, and Nasa, They're the ones that posted the studies about heat in objects at high speeds. You seem very anti-science, probably a flat earther. If talking about Science upsets you, maybe you should turn your computer off.
     
  9. CerebralDistortion

    CerebralDistortion Well-Known Member

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    When you no longer can support your arguement with facts, turn to insults.
    Good call Sir, shows your mettle.
     
  10. ricksengines

    ricksengines Sako-addicted

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    Guys. We simply don't want to tolerate the stone throwing that is going on in this thread. Mind you, it is acceptable to disagree but the name calling and other negativity has to stop! Our forum is a place where information can be shared freely, without the conflict and name calling.

    SO PUT AN END TO IT!

    rick
     
  11. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    The guy just came in the thread and started talking negatively. Even though I posted all the relevant links. They should time this guy out or something, he just pops in threads to talk negatively to people.
     
  12. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    "At Mach 3+, the SR-71 would get blisteringly hot. This was not due to “friction” with the air as is often claimed, but due to compression of the air. In effect, the SR-71 was a bloody great hammer smashing air molecules; since it was moving three times the speed of sound, the molecules simply could not flow out of the way and instead were compressed to many times normal density and shoved out of the way. The compression occurred quickly enough that the heat built up in the process could not radiate away, and instead was conducted to the skin of the plane.


    Interestingly, the hottest part of the plane – apart from the engines – was the one part that the engineers and pilots most wanted to keep cool: the cockpit.
    "

    Here's another interesting fact about high speed travel. In the SR-71's, it wasn't due to air friction that caused the heat issues regarding high speed flight, but it was the air compression. Whether it be a jet or a bullet, the same physics apply. With thin jacketed copper bullets, I believe certain rounds might also be victim to heat due to air compression. I believe this also explains that not only varmint rounds were integrity compromised, but also larger rounds like the Holland and Hollands.

    Hornady's study made a direct correlation to high BC bullets. I'm not sure how the high bullet coefficients correlates to air compression at the nose, but it might be something to do with surface area or whatnot, who knows, but what we do know is that we have some data to consider.

    I think when we consider the high BC bullets like the G4-G7 grade designs, we must consider the wall thickness and be aware of the velocities as well. If we are loading high bc bullets, maybe we shouldn't load them so hot to prevent integrity compromise. This might not be convenient for competitions, but it's something to consider at least for hunting and whatnot. Maybe we can close the gaps between ourselves and game to offset the lighter loads. I myself have swapped to the lead free copper bullets for hunting, and partitions in order to adjust for the integrity. I think with the thin walled jacketed bullets, I might try varying loads to bring the integrity of the bullet back in line. The point here is to make sure that we have the most mass available at the point of impact. Over and out.
     
  13. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    Like I said, this argument belongs on another forum! Meaningless drivel completely unrelated to Sako or, for that matter, anything useful for hunting or normal shooting activities. Now it's turned ugly.
     
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  14. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    This is and has been one of the most interesting threads I have read here, tho my brain is having a rough time sorting out all the information and theories. Science has to apply at some point, as does truth ,fact and verifiable proof. I have pondered this stuff since the beginning of this thread and much makes sense but some is simply too far away from my personal desire to comprehend.

    The levels of disrespect and condescension here are sad and embarrassing to me. It goes on frequently with some folks here as I have noticed since I was accepted to this forum.
    Sure , we can agree or disagree, on the subjects that are discussed here , and we can jab and jest at some of it in fun , but do we really need this level of contention over a simple interjection of ideals?

    Im gonna stick to my reloading manuals and data, as it serves better than trying to learn any more from this thread.

    Roll up your trousers, piss is knee deep in this match

    Hippie
     
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  15. bigcountry4me

    bigcountry4me Well-Known Member

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    I’m quite sure you came to the forum with good intentions. So, I read each post in this thread in an attempt to equate your - and perhaps others theories and hypothesis’s. These debates regarding velocity vs bullet construction are nothing new, so I welcome your insight, even though I respectfully disagree.

    I’d suggest thoroughly watching the video again in your first post. The gentleman makes several good points regarding match vs hunting projectiles. He even sort of admits his own foolishness in using a match bullet for big game (obviously elk). He goes on by debunking match bullets in general for hunting, furthermore, he debunks most of the “new” match style hunting bullets. Then he shows many preferred and proven hunting bullets. He states terms like “push the limits”, “every bullet has it limit” and so on. More importantly he speaks of “the hunt” and “ethical hunting distance”.

    It’s actually pretty simple, hunt with well constructed bullets made and proven for big game at acceptable velocities.

    Target and long range shoot with bullets designed for that task. Push them as fast as you like, maybe you’ll even come up with some indisputable data to prove the ongoing debate.

    Perhaps another insight would be to understand the larger percentage of the forum, it’s members, and the typical discussion topics.

    I’d suggest there’s hundreds or perhaps thousands of years of combined experience here. The vastness of world wide knowledge is tremendous. Collector’s, big game hunters, varmint and predator hunters, target shooters, etc. And, one of the most knowledgeable and experienced bases of hand loading I’ve ever read. At the ripe age of 34, I’d suggest taking in some of the knowledge here and use it to continue your own quest.

    I’m sure other members (me included) would love to know more about your AV and the rest of your Sako rifles.
     
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  16. CerebralDistortion

    CerebralDistortion Well-Known Member

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    This is not a pissing contest, this is me telling someone off for telling lies and spreading misinformation. Maybe not in the most congenial way, I'll give you that, but still.

    Maybe I should have taken more care in my first post in this thread, but I was short on time and on the phone. Silly excuse I know.

    So, I'll try to make amends by pointing out some of the faults in the first post in this thread and add a few comments:

    Citation needed. There are a lot of different bullet manufacturers providing match bullets of different quality. Berger, Sierra and Lapua are some of the most renown for their quality. Lapua at least still provide bullets with the same specs as earlier, but due to increased demand for stable and more durable bullets (due to tighter twists and higher velocity) they also have developed new versions of said bullets.
    In the case of Lapua, the Scenar has been complemented with the Scenar-L that is sturdier and has a higher BC.

    There are several reasons a bullet might fracture. Aforementioned spin and velocity are two reasons. Internal instabilities and external forces are two others. Internal instabilities could be due to the manufacturing process (the cross section picture previously in this thread shows uneven application of pressure by an undersized dowel pressing the lead core into the cup). And external forces could be a twig, a blade of grass or dust and debris blowing in the wind.

    You could argue that the rotational force, i.e. torque (ft-lbs) in a bullet does give a measurable amount of energy hitting a target, but mainly it is kinetic energy (Joule) transformed into heat, but also deformation of both bullet and target (whound channel, bullet weight retention).
    This is not the usual mechanics used for armour piercing bullets (as I wrote about in a previous post).

    Metal in general brake into smaller pieces and fragments more when it is hard and brittle, not when it is soft. This applies to steel, brass, aluminium and so forth. And lead.

    Citation needed. Nosler Partition is an old construction used to prevent separation of core and jacket. Later there were, and are, "bonded", either mechanically with a cannelure or by solder/glue, bullets that keeps the core in place in the jacket.

    Belief is not proof and the statement is wrong in so many ways. Where does the energy to heat the bullet come from? In short. If a lead core bullet were to be heated to a high enough temperature for the lead to melt it would require a lot of energy. Shooting a solid copper bullet of the same weight with the same load should then be noticeable faster.

    The ignited powder is the case of the gas expanding propelling the bullet forward. In turn the air in front of the bullet exerts a force to the bullet front. There is no vacuum. The chemical process of oxygen is not to vanish, but to form a new molecule and going from solid to gas the space required by the gasses is so much larger that even if the oxygen magically disappeared it would still propel the bullet forward.

    A body hotter than its surroundings will always loose heat due to radiation or physical transfer. The barrel heating up is due to the controlled burn of the powder and due to friction between bullet and barrel. Not because of a bullet with a core of molten lead is passing through it. A solid will still heat up a barrel and so will a loaded cartridge without a bullet.

    What is a good group? A match bullet made with the best tolerances possible will always outshoot something "thrown together" and some bullets are not manufactured to perform as high precision bullets.
    And everything is spinning, core and jacket. Even if the lead was liquid, it would still be spinning.

    There already are, from almost all manufacturers, bullets that can withstand the higher demands from modern firearms and new calibers.

    So, this was a run through of the first post. The following are not any better. If any of you really are interested in bullet construction and ballistics, there are a whole section over on SnipersHide discussing this by people using and manufacturing bullets used for both long range shooting and hunting.

    Do not post anything like the first post in this thread there though, it will be moved to the "Bear pit" and torn apart. I was polite in comparison to what to expect there.

    So, should I expect a ban now? My main interest in this site is the TRG/M995 and directing people to where questions about these rifles are more likely to be answered. I think you'll manage without me.
     
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  17. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    You've ignored all the posts from the World Congress of Engineering. You've ignored the post from Hornady, and you even ignored the post from Erik at Berger Bullets when he did his study on heat affected bullets disintegrating. You've also ignored the post about Air Compression during high velocities and the heat that accumulates from that. Which was in response to your nonsense about air friction. You also denied pressure having anything to do with anything, which was completely asinine. So nothing you say is even remotely constructive, and you're not 'Telling anyone off", because you're not very educated obviously. You've selectively quoted my words, posted some drivel about nothing as an attempt to be argumentative, meanwhile completely ignoring all the links and information I have posted. Furthermore the gentleman in the video said "That all modern bullets are basically just match grade bullets, not sufficient for hunting". And of course he excluded the Barnes copper bullets that retain their mass, and he excluded the Nosler Partitions, because they also retained their mass due to the rearward partition. Frankly Sir, you behave like a woman, illogical and emotional. If you wish to continue your tirade, by all means, cry your little heart out. But I'll keep posting relevant information for those that actually have some field experience and have witnessed their bullets lose integrity during flight.
     
  18. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    It's quite related to Sako firearms, like I mentioned before, this is a general forum discussion. It's pretty shocking that a woman from Iowa such as yourself would deprive a man of his right to Speech. But I guess those Liberal types are spreading all over these days.
     
  19. Devareaux

    Devareaux Active Member

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    Again the information I have relayed has apparently went right over your head. I'll use more direct language so you can understand better, therefor you won't have to do much thinking to understand what is written. I said, "But what's interesting is that these bullets were found in very tiny fragments and no large pieces were ever recovered, so that entails that the lead was also very soft before impact". I said that is was SOFT BEFORE IMPACT, not during impact. So you address something that I didn't even say. I didn't say it was soft on impact. So your response to what is written is not even logical. If it were soft on impact, it would simply splatter and not fragment, I had already mentioned that in the post.

    As you might not know, during the hardening process we apply heat to an object and then quench it. That's not what is happening during trajectory. What is actually happening is quite different, it's more a tempering process during flight or an over annealing process. annealing allows atoms to migrate to a less-strained position, whereas quenching lock atoms in place. Quenching is what is giving it more hardness and brittleness. Tempering forgoes some hardness for toughness. Very different things.

    Now back to my original statement. It entails it was soft before impact, because of the tiny fragmentation. This man was talking about a long ranged shot he took. So in that process the bullet was heating, softened up during heating as is the case in tempering, heating is the first stage, and during heating metal becomes more soft before the atoms are locked into a position from cooling. Then due to the frontal air compression, which would normally spread a hollow nose open, the further heat in the air compression and the forces pushed upon the lead core, began to fragment that lead before it could be cooled enough to maintain integrity. Rotational momentum might have also played a role. But the end result is that the lead separated and fragmented before impact anyway. Because the bullets he recovered were just copper jackets, there was no bullet in his game animals, and he found fragmentation only of what used to be a lead bullet. So something was happening before impact, and in order for fragmentation to happen before impact, the hardness had to be compromised, which entails it was soft before impact, due to heating, soft enough to fragment from the frontal air compression.

    I won't get into the rest of your comments, because it's all drivel, you don't have the mental capacity to understand what is written anyway. So I'll forgo doing any of that.
     
  20. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Devareaux, you show an enormous knowledge of physics, but you are having a problem accepting common basic discussion of fact pertaining to bullet strength and integrity. Please take your discussion to another forum.

    Stonecreek. Would you please shut down this thread because it has become a pissing contest that no longer serves any good purpose on this forum.

    To all of you who have contributed to this discussion while it was still of value to those who hand load for the best results of ALL phases of shooting, thank you for your input. Sakojim.
     
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