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Anyone load for a 223 L461??

Discussion in 'General Sako Discussions' started by Tesoro, Feb 4, 2022.

  1. Tesoro

    Tesoro Well-Known Member

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    Today I was ordering some Wilson arbor dies for my new to me L461 .223. The gal told me I need to order the expanded chamber neck die for the sako, instead of regular, as the Sako chambers are a tad larger than reg 223. Arbor dies are for fireformed only. Any comments? I held off for now.

     

  2. GreyFox

    GreyFox Well-Known Member

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    I use RCBS 223 dies, no issues at all,
    Not sure what she's referring to?
     
  3. gowyo

    gowyo Sako Junkie

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    She may be associating the 22 PPC USA chambering vs the 22 PPC tight neck issue and applying it to the .223. I also use RCBS, no issues with any of my .223's- SS, bolt repeater, or semis. (12 guns) Were I to change, I might go to Redding bushing dies.
     
  4. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    She is spreading "misinformation". Sako 223 Rem chambers are made to CIP/SAAMI specs. I think gowyo has it right about her confusion & agree on the Redding neck sizing bushing dies, as they allow you to size your necks precisely in .001" increments. BTW, I have an AI Varmint in 223 REM & have used regular dies from several manufacturer's without any problems. When you call her back, ask her if she sells the "thicker necked" 223 brass.;)
     
  5. Bottom Gun

    Bottom Gun Well-Known Member

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    I've been loading .223 for my Vixens with RCBS and Dillon brand dies for decades and have never had an issue. Accuracy is excellent if I pay attention to how I'm shooting.
     
  6. Tesoro

    Tesoro Well-Known Member

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    I have a call in to tech and waiting for return. Lost sleep on this last night!! Most hand die users are match shooters and have match chambers for 223 = longer freebore for longer bullets. No coal concerns as they are single shots. I have heard some chambers have 'tighter' necks than std. I guess they must work up a specific neck wall thickness on their casings for a precise fit at desired tension. But as Wilson uses neck bushings I dont see how this could make any diff in the actual neck die. I use Lapua brass which has thicker walls so I use a larger bushing to not create too much neck tension. So who knows!! Will post when I find out.
     
  7. kevinlg

    kevinlg Well-Known Member

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    Tesoro......

    Check the LE Wilson website to confirm their offerings.

    The lady has confused the Sako 22PPC USA chambering with the standard 223 Rem chambering.
    I have both.

    The "oversize" dimension she is referring to is at the base/datum area........NOT at the case neck area.

    Yes.....Wilson does make two different neck dies for the 22PPC. You will see them listed on their website.

    Hope this helps.
     
  8. Tesoro

    Tesoro Well-Known Member

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    The 22ppc is not made from a 223 casing? I dont think there was any confusion as we were both referring to the same numbers for the 223 die kit. And she specifically told me that they recommended 'oversize' 223 due to their experiences with some Sako's having larger 'chambers'? But what is oversize? I dont understand what can be oversize in a bushing neck die. If Sako's were reamed for Lapua brass, which has thicker neck walls, then maybe their throats are a tad larger to alleviate excess neck pressure? just playing guessing game until I get the call!
     
  9. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary SCC Board Member

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    Since these are neck dies then she could only be talking about having the die body large enough not to contact a case which has been expanded by firing.

    This seems counter to the usual experience with Sako chambers in that they generally tend to be tighter than other manufacturers (but still within SAAMI specs). A while back a representative for Starline brass posted here on the forum that they were receiving complaints of their .222 brass not chambering in some Sako .222's and solicited several members to try samples that he would send them. I responded that I had several Sako .222's that I would try, so he sent me 20 rounds of new brass. It turned out that most of my later rifles chambered fine, but one rifle was very tight and another refused to chamber the brass.

    Anyway, I'm not quite sure why Wilson would make the body of the die so close to SAMMI specs when it could essentially be as large as you wished and not change the way the die works (caveat: I have never used a Wilson neck die and there may be something about their design that I don't understand.)

    Found the Starline .222 thread: https://sakocollectors.com/forum/th...-in-sako-vixen-need-testers.13864/#post-73590
     
  10. Tesoro

    Tesoro Well-Known Member

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    If so one would think she would have told me specify the ‘undersize’ die!
    The wilson bushings are not free floating so the die body, I think, would need to be relatively snug to help center the shoulder.

    I have never used them before but always wanted to. So I have no experience and have only watched guys load at the range.
     
  11. Unclekax

    Unclekax Well-Known Member

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    RCBS dies and press L461
    My Colt/Sako is not the least bit fussy
    Scope is a 4x Leupold compact
    Your results may vary 220AB842-E9F5-418A-AA18-881E5D66E8BE.jpeg
     
    Old Hippie likes this.
  12. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    Your Coltsman standard sporter was not barreled or chambered by Sako, but it was chambered to the same specs as Sako used.
     
  13. Foxhunter223

    Foxhunter223 Well-Known Member

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    Just to throw a fly in the ointment. My Sako 223 that I bought in 1973 never shot as accurately as it should have. I would lose at least 10 % or more of cases I fired every time I used it, they would crack the necks down to the shoulder. I actually thought it was because the brand of cases I was using. In the end I took it to two different gunsmiths for them to look at and both said the same thing. The chamber was large. I had it re-chambered and low and behold the groups shrank remarkably.

    Pete
     
  14. kevinlg

    kevinlg Well-Known Member

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    Unless you plan on neck turning cases, using Wilson neck dies MAY not give any better results than regular ol' RCBS dies(with maybe an added neck size only die). A Wilson neck size die will NOT center a case neck hole that has an uneven brass thickness.

    You see case wall thicknesses vary from brand-to-brand, lot-to-lot, case-to-case........and yes, even Lapua.
    I usually examine new lots of cases I receive.....whether I neck turn them or not.
    Below is a pic of Lapua cases, examined by measuring neck wall thickness variation....T.I.R.

    Hope this helps.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Tesoro

    Tesoro Well-Known Member

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    Yikes! Were you able to determine oversize chamber by mic'ing the fire formed cases vs specs or? What did you re-chamber it to?
     
  16. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    An oversize or out of spec chamber can be confirmed by doing a chamber casting with Cero-Safe. You can do it to your rifle & confirm what you have instead of chasing possibilities & misinformation. It's very unlikely that a chamber reamer would be too large & be used in factory production. If so, ALL the chambers reamed with that tool would be "oversized". I have found no widespread evidence of Sako chambers being "too large". It's more likely that the reamer was not running true to center & had a slight wobble, thus causing an out of spec chamber to slip thru. Yes, even Sako made mistakes. I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill with all this fretting over this imagined problem. Like kevinig said, the Wilson dies are probably not going to give you any advantage over regular dies. Unless you are using a benchrest chamber & do all the other things involved with benchrest loading you are just wasting time & money, IMHO. Let us know how things work out. Good luck!
     
  17. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary SCC Board Member

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    The chambers on mass-produced rifles are reamed with reamers that start out at SAMMI maximum dimension specs (and maybe sometimes a little larger to cheat just a bit). This allows the manufacturer to get as many barrels as possible out of a reamer before it wears below minimum specs. If one of those brand new "maximum" reamers gets tilted out of true just a tad then it is going to produce an excessively large chamber.

    By the way, most chambers on "Rugchestertons" tend to be very "generous" in my experience, while die manufacturers tend to make FL dies to squeeze brass below minimums. This assures "easy chambering", but also assures a lot of working of brass if a reloader isn't careful. By the same token, I've found most Sako chambers to be closer to the mid-range of SAMMI specs, thus the brass fired in them is generally worked less.

    I use Lee Collet dies for nearly all of my reloading of bottleneck centerfires. Rarely do I find the need to FL size, provided the brass is properly segregated by the rifle in which it was fired. "Hard" chambering with brass fired in the same (bolt action) rifle is a sign of either a misshapen chamber or of loads generating excessive pressure.
     
    paulsonconstruction likes this.
  18. gowyo

    gowyo Sako Junkie

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    I forgot to note, I try and segregate my brass per gun, except for semis, they all get full length sized, I've never had the need for small base's dies, either.

    I tend to partial neck size for all of my other .223, verifying abiliy to feed in each gun.

    Good luck!

    Gary
     
  19. Tesoro

    Tesoro Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all! I am staying away from Wilson. I dont want to do what I have done in the past by loading precision for my hunting/plinking rifle!! if I can keep em all in an inch then i'm good to go.
     
    Unclekax likes this.
  20. Foxhunter223

    Foxhunter223 Well-Known Member

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    As I was set up for 223 I had it re-chambered in 223. As for how the gunsmiths both came to their conclusions, I don't recall asking them and I just ;eft the rifle with them for inspection. More than likely a chamber cast, but I am not sure. One did offer the opinion that it might have been a 5,56 chamber. As for that possibility it did shoot SS109 ammo extremely well.

    Pete
     

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