Discussion in 'General Sako Discussions' started by cl_leg, Aug 14, 2017.
A dollar less than me, whats his number?
As I already posted, I have serial #20 that was sent to a gunwriter by Louis Palmisano himself. I got a great deal on it, plus I have documentation on the rifle that will quantify it's origin so there is no hearsay in regards to its pedigree.
The answer to your question of its worth is entirely subjective and what you value the gun with its provenance and if it can be documented. All that aside, I wouldn't be afraid to pay upwards to $2,000.00 for it, but past that you will be looking at some inflation of the gun value that may take a few years to gain the value if you did pay too much.
I would also suggest you don't let it get away if it is a few hundred $ over budget, then years later regret passing on it.
So . . . the subject gun serial # 1. . . . is a custom built . . . not a factory product, like above.
I have no idea what gun that serial number is from. A serial number of 0 doesn't fit the criteria for serialization of guns. The lettering is a different style, compared to mine. This is a genuine single shot solid action Sako 6mm PPC...
Interesting idea ????
I was thinking of this gun as the gun in question with serial # 1 that light trigger brought up
Thanks for information. As to provenance, the rifle was sent to a writer well known in the benchrest game. Never fired, still in original box. As to price, $3000, has been offered and refused, but in gentle terms as "would you take..?" and "Don't think I would." rather than "I'll give you..." and "Nope"
I still don't have any clear information to make an valuation. Is it a deluxe hb or a plain hb or a super deluxe hb?
Serial number 1 will always add value to a gun, but I don't know if it will add that much. The gun itself is probably a $1800.00 gun being unfired with the box. Serial number 1 has value, but how much depends on who wants it enough to pay more for it. There could be more than 1 serial number 1 as there were different variations of those rifles.
The question still lies with what proof the gun went to a gun writer and how that would be documented. Any person can make that claim, but to add any value it needs to have some sort of documentation. The gun writer it was sent to also needs to be well known or there isn't any value there.
Pictures would help, but when it belongs to someone else, that could be hard to do. If he wants more than $3000.00, he ought to let you take a few pictures for your research and he should also provide absolute proof of the gun writer connection or there is no value at all in that claim.
I find it hard to understand that simply because a particular gun once belonged to a gun writer, or some other known personage, it has enhanced value. If the rifle in question is a deluxe model (which it probably is), it will likely look like most other deluxe models and will have the same aesthetic quality and accuracy. That is unless the rifle was picked out for superior wood, for example, or has some added features like engraving before being sent to the writer. I guess the low serial number makes it a little different, but I for one wouldn't pay any more for that. Just my own opinion here; others may see it differently.
I guess it all goes to the notion of guns as investments. I've never seen them that way, and in my opinion, guns are terrible as pure investments, particularly if you shoot them. In 20 years you might be able to get more dollars for an unfired gun than you paid, but I doubt that the increase will be much more than inflation.
Provenance does add to the gun's value. Have you ever heard of Jack O'Connor or Elmer Kieth?
Serial number 1 will make a gun more desireable at the very least and more probably it will add value. The person that sees value in it will pay more.
Guns are investments, but like any investment, you have to buy it right and be able to sell it right. Throughout the crashes of 2000, and 2008, stocks and securities went down in value tremendously. Guns may have declined too, but I don't feel I took near the hit I did with the stock market. Besides that, a good used rifle from the right manufacturer and date, will hold it's value and even increase in it's value depending on condition.
I have never lost money in guns, I can't say that about the stock market...
You should offer yourself what ever makes you happy.
Of course. But would Jack O'Connor's Al Biesen-built 270 (the one he was reportedly buried with) be worth that much more than one I'd have Al build for me? Not to me, but I guess it would to some.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about this. If I were looking for something to put my money into today as a pure investment, it sure wouldn't be guns!
I'll continue to buy guns I like, but won't expect them to make money for me down the line.
Maybe in Canada guns are not a good investment, but here in the U.S like Kirk said, if you buy right, sell right, and buy the right type, guns are a great investment.
Some guns that I know of have increased 100% in value.
It’s the same in Canada as it is in the US. It may be true that you could get very lucky and pick up a gun that will be in great demand many years later, but I believe that would be an atypical occurrence. I’ve looked at this from a long-term actuarial perspective.
Consider a gun that you might have bought in 1987, 30 years ago. Inflation over that period has risen 2.59% per year, or an increase of 115.5%. For two brands with which I’m familiar, Anschutz and Sako, you could have purchased new in 1987 the following:
1. An Anschutz 1422 54-action sporter for $652.50 in 1987. $652.50 in 1987 would be worth $1406 with inflation by 2017.
2. An Anschutz 54.18 metallic silhouette rifle for $998. $998 would be worth $2150 with inflation by 2017.
3. A Sako Deluxe model rifle on an A-series action for $1145. $1145 would be worth $2467 with inflation by 2017.
Here are some used prices (not bids) for these rifles today. I went to the usual places like Guns International and Guns America, etc.
1. Anschutz 1422 in excellent condition: $1595 (but including scope), so assume $1500 without scope. Gain in price: about 130%. Compare to a 115.5% gain, or $1406, by inflation.
2. Anschutz 54.18 in excellent condition: one for $1650; one for $1534. Avg. $1592. Gain in price: about 60%. Compare to a 115.5% gain, or $2150, by inflation.
3. Sako Deluxe: many for sale ranging from $1200 to $2500. Average something like $1800. Gain in price: about 57%. Compare to a 115.5% gain, or $2467, by inflation. Here are a couple of examples:
AIII or AV (hard to tell) 30-06, $1595 (with scope): http://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...deluxe-30-06-springfield.cfm?gun_id=100906779
AV 7 Rem. Mag, $1400 (with rings): http://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...uxe-7mm-remington-magnum.cfm?gun_id=100867330
For these three examples, only one beat inflation and that one by very little.
Now suppose in 1987 you invested the $1145, the price of a new Sako Deluxe A-series rifle, in the market instead. Over that period the Dow Jones Industrial Average has risen about 11-fold (about 8.35% per year over that span). Today your $1145 would be worth about $12,600 if it had risen in line with the DJIA, considerably more than the $1800, say, you could get today for that Sako. Or, say you bought really "smart" in 1987 and got a new one for close to 40% off, let's say $700 instead of $1145, and sold it "high" today for $2500 as NIB, for a profit of $1800 on the face of it. This doesn't come close to matching the $7700 your 1987 initial investment of $700 would be worth today in the market--a profit of $7000.
I’m not a financial expert--far from it--and my analysis may be flawed in certain ways; I’m sure someone will be able to find an example or two in which the gun’s increase in value long-term has greatly outstripped inflation. However, I think my point holds about guns generally not increasing, long-term, in value by more than inflation, and thus are not generally good investments by any standards of investment efficiency.
Like everyone on this forum, though, this fact has not kept me from dropping a lot of money into guns over the years. The thought of losing out from an investment standpoint doesn’t come close to overshadowing the fun of owning them!
Your shopping differs from mine.
I'm not buying new rifles thinking that they are going to appreciate in value. If I purchase a new gun, it's to use, not for a investment.
But I will search high and low for older collectable guns and try to buy them at the right price. You really have to know your guns and what their worth when doing so or you might end up paying more that you should.
Just a month ago I purchased a Sako 591 Varmint, 220 Swift with rings, at a local Scheels store that they had priced at $699. Knowing the 220 Swifts are sort of rare I purchase it and in a week turned it around and made an easy $800 profit.
A few years ago I purchase two rare HK pistols on a auction for the sum of $2700. I knew what they were and what they were worth. Others at the auction must of not of. These two pistols are worth $7,500 today.
I have many,many more examples like the ones above.
Guns are a good investment, you just have to know what your doing.
For anyone to claim that "it's the same in Canada as the US" they must have their head in the deep cold Canadian snow. Canada has 60 day waiting period for a gun, vs none in the US. Plus relatives must be contacted in Canada before a gun transaction is complete. The Canadian dollar and the US dollar are never the same. The US is 27 times larger as little ole Canada.
Your logic is as bad as your advice. A Jack O'Connor gun by Biesen or anyone else will fetch a bunch more money than the same gun you would own.
Walking into a dentist's office won't make you a dentist any more than buying guns will make you wealthy. Investing is different than buying and it sounds like you buy, I invest...
Hey, kirk..., Let's review precisely what I wrote:
"...But would Jack O'Connor's Al Biesen-built 270 (the one he was reportedly buried with) be worth that much more than one I'd have Al build for me? Not to me, but I guess it would to some." (bolding added)
You'll see that I clearly noted that the O'Connor Al Biesen would not be worth that much more to me, but acknowledged that it would be to some. It helps to actually read what others say before accusing them of faulty logic and advice.
And just to pick up on that theme: of the many hundreds of gun owners I know and have known over many years, not many would pay much extra to buy (or as you like to say "invest in") a gun just because some writer had once owned it. (And that's not a Canadian-American thing.) The seller has to find that person who would actually pay the premium for such a rifle, and that might very well prove difficult. Believing that the increased price is reasonable and asking for it is a long way from actually getting it, and it is the latter that represents the true value of the gun.
Self-congratulatory twaddle and a completely uncalled-for attempt at a put-down. Not to mention incomprehensible and meaningless analogizing. Not much more to say.
enotstehw, what I responded to was the statement that
"Maybe in Canada guns are not a good investment, but here in the U.S ...[they are]".
What I said was the same in Canada as the US was the issue of whether or not guns are a good investment. I was certainly not trying to equate the two countries in the ways to which you allude. But, since you have noted some supposed national differences, let me correct the inaccuracies you have stated about the Canadian gun-buying experience:
1. There is no 60-day waiting period for a gun in Canada. All long gun sales are completed the same day.
2. Contacting relatives before completion of a gun purchase is just absolutely untrue. It doesn't happen.
What you may have been mistakenly thinking of is our gun law that requires a gun buyer to have a Possession and Acquisition License (PAL), something acquired once (and renewed every five years) and then applicable for all future gun purchases. This may take a few weeks to be processed, and it may involve contact with wives and possibly others, but often doesn't. Once you have the PAL, however, gun purchases can be made for as many guns as you like over the years and are completed the same day with no outreach to family members.
3. The fact that the Canadian and US dollars are not of equal value is completely irrelevant to the issue as to whether guns are a good investment. Just as an interesting comparison, what we pay for guns is very similar to what you pay in the US. Actually, we pay less for European guns in Canada than you pay in the US. A new Sako 85 Bavarian runs $2250 Cdn. (or about $1780 USD) here, a gun that costs you about $2000 USD. And a new Sako 85 Hunter goes for $2200 Cdn. (or about $1750 USD) in Canada, but about $1930 USD in the US.
4. The relative population of the US and Canada--about 8.9 to 1, not 27 to 1--is also irrelevant to the issue of interest here.
OK. enotstehw? You've now got the straight facts re gun buying and ownership in Canada from an actual Canadian who's been buying guns in Canada for many decades.
Separate names with a comma.