Short Actions Wrecked L461 Vixen Deluxe

[gunner620]

Bloo, I agree with you. flashlight works best for me and I always weigh each powder charge to be safe.

 

[icebear]

I use two trays - one for primed cases, one for primed and charged. I pick a case from the first tray, add powder, and set it in the second tray. When I've finished the powder operation, I check the filled cases with a flashlight, and move on to bullet seating.

I generally weigh each powder charge for rifle ammo. Pistol ammo goes straight from the powder measure, as the number of rounds is much higher and I'm not looking for the ultimate in accuracy. Same drill with two trays and a flashlight check. I also double-bump the powder measure handle to make sure all the powder drops.

A double charge is much more likely with a pistol round than rifle. Two charges of Bullseye will easily fit in a .38 Special case. This makes the flashlight check doubly important when loading for handguns, especially revolvers.

 

[Caballero59]

Bluedot works fantastically well for reduced loads in small rifles. I've used it in .223 and .22 Hornet for many years. There has never been any evidence of "SEE" (secondary explosion effect) with Bluedot as sometimes occurs with reduced loads with some very slow powders when there is excessive air space in the case.

Without knowing the exact circumstances and examining the rifle it is impossible to say what might have occurred with Caballero's rifle. Double charging is always a hazard with any load which fills only a portion of the case (it frequently occurs in handguns where a very fast powder might allow even a triple charge.) Bore obstruction is another possibility. Loading a misidentified powder could be the culprit. Or even accidentally stuffing a much heavier bullet into the case by mistake: For instance, a 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip would look exactly like a 60 grain Ballistic Tip once seated in the case, but would obviously raise pressures an unacceptable amount.

None of the above possibilities may be the actual cause, but suffice it to say that it is highly doubtful that a proper charge of Bluedot, with all of the other components being proper, would have caused the over-pressure load.

Caballero doesn't describe the "stock split", but if it simply split at the tang then is certainly salvageable. The receiver itself, as well as the barrel, are likely undamaged (assuming the barrel had no bore obstruction). This is because brass gives way much below the limit of elasticity of the steel of the receiver and barrel. The bolt should be magnafluxed to see if there is actually any damage to it -- it is difficult for a case head as small as the .223 to create enough thrust to actually set the lugs back.

However, in the end I think that Paulson's suggestion to salvage and sell the action parts (and possibly the barrel) may be the best way to cut Caballero's losses. Put the money toward purchasing a new L461 .223.

Thank you for your well reasoned commentary. I appreciate that it (along with many of the others) is completely absent any of the virtue signaling that one sees so often when discussing reloading on shooting forums. I've been shooting Trail Boss, 800x, S4759, and Blue Dot for years in reduced loads with great results, especially with Blue Dot. For this reason, I'm perplexed and would love to know what happened. The fact that several rounds prior to the firecracker round, one load was a bit warmer with some sticky bolt lift confuses the issue a bunch, and tends to cancel the double charge theory. I was dropping charges from a Redding Bench Rest measure which has been reliable. This particular load was 12.0 gr Blue Dot with a Hornady 50 gr spsx which was a sweet load until it wasn't.

 

[stonecreek]

This particular load was 12.0 gr Blue Dot with a Hornady 50 gr spsx which was a sweet load until it wasn't

I just checked and my .223 Bluedot load is 13.5 grains with the same 50 grain Hornady. Chronographed velocity is recorded as 2850 fps. I'd guess that your load would typically run around 2600-2700 fps. I've fired hundreds of these and it has always behaved very consistently with never any signs of pressure.

As "fluffy" as Bluedot is I don't think you could get a double charge of 24 grains in a .223 case without it running over the top. However, there could be some other explanation. Have you pulled bullets from the remaining batch of those handloads to see if there is any discrepancy in any of them. That would be the first place that I would start.

An example might be an inadvertent mixture of powders. In nearly 60 years of handloading I've accidentally dumped the tail end of a hopper of powder into the wrong container -- and, gratefully caught my mistake and discarded the mixture before using it. But if a handloader had dumped 50 grains of Bullseye into a half-full can of Bluedot he might later pour the contaminated Bluedot into his powder measure unaware of the Bullseye. The Bullseye then might be concentrated near the bottom of the hopper, so the first charges might be mostly Bullseye and not Bluedot. However, those "hopped up" rounds might be randomly mixed in the box of cartridges when he went to shoot them. Several might be normal (those charged after the Bullseye was exhausted from the powder hopper), while others might have amounts of Bullseye varying from just enough to cause a sticky bolt to enough to wreck the action.

So, as I say, if you haven't pulled the bullets on the remainder of that lot of loads buy all means do so to see if there is some anomaly.

 

[Caballero59]

I just checked and my .223 Bluedot load is 13.5 grains with the same 50 grain Hornady. Chronographed velocity is recorded as 2850 fps. I'd guess that your load would typically run around 2600-2700 fps. I've fired hundreds of these and it has always behaved very consistently with never any signs of pressure.

As "fluffy" as Bluedot is I don't think you could get a double charge of 24 grains in a .223 case without it running over the top. However, there could be some other explanation. Have you pulled bullets from the remaining batch of those handloads to see if there is any discrepancy in any of them. That would be the first place that I would start.

An example might be an inadvertent mixture of powders. In nearly 60 years of handloading I've accidentally dumped the tail end of a hopper of powder into the wrong container -- and, gratefully caught my mistake and discarded the mixture before using it. But if a handloader had dumped 50 grains of Bullseye into a half-full can of Bluedot he might later pour the contaminated Bluedot into his powder measure unaware of the Bullseye. The Bullseye then might be concentrated near the bottom of the hopper, so the first charges might be mostly Bullseye and not Bluedot. However, those "hopped up" rounds might be randomly mixed in the box of cartridges when he went to shoot them. Several might be normal (those charged after the Bullseye was exhausted from the powder hopper), while others might have amounts of Bullseye varying from just enough to cause a sticky bolt to enough to wreck the action.

So, as I say, if you haven't pulled the bullets on the remainder of that lot of loads buy all means do so to see if there is some anomaly.

Unfortunately, I immediately pulled the rest but your advice was excellent. The load chronographed right at 2700 as you predicted. Dang, I hope I haven't mixed powder. I'm going to pour a bunch of it out and look at it carefully.

 

[Bucktote]

I use two trays - one for primed cases, one for primed and charged. I pick a case from the first tray, add powder, and set it in the second tray. When I've finished the powder operation, I check the filled cases with a flashlight, and move on to bullet seating.

I generally weigh each powder charge for rifle ammo. Pistol ammo goes straight from the powder measure, as the number of rounds is much higher and I'm not looking for the ultimate in accuracy. Same drill with two trays and a flashlight check. I also double-bump the powder measure handle to make sure all the powder drops.

A double charge is much more likely with a pistol round than rifle. Two charges of Bullseye will easily fit in a .38 Special case. This makes the flashlight check doubly important when loading for handguns, especially revolvers.

Hi Icebear!
I too am a double bumper. I guess I should also mention that when reloading I have never tried light loads but try to stay mostly in the middle of the published loading data. If a double charge were to occur the excess would spill out of the case with the loadings I do and the powder I use. Thus my experience would not encompass the problem Mr. Caballero had. I load .243, 30/06, 25/06 for myself & on occasion .270 & .308 for friends, ( I don't like to do that ) I like to use one type of powder & have gotten good results with IMR4350. I have tried a few other powders but have kept with the 4350. The flashlight trick seems good & I insist on no distractions. Have fun stay safe & keep our minds on the task we are doing. B/T

 

[barm]

I considered that of course, but it doesn't harmonize with the data all that well. I've shot many loads with Blue Dot and they were loaded light. After hundreds of these rounds, there was a round that had a sticky bolt lift. This was weird. I wondered if I was too close to the lands and that round had jammed the lands, raising pressure. This was not a double charge. I don't think the case would hold a double charge, and if it did, I think the damage would be even worse. Five rounds later was when it happened and it was super hot. Whatever it was, I believe it was related to the previous round with a sticky bolt lift and that was not a double charge. It is a mystery at this point. Countless rounds of Blue Dot have been fired by many people for reduced loads. There are conditions under which Blue Dot is weird. Cold weather for example, 125 gr 357 mag loads, 41 mag loads with any bullet weight, etc. I don't trust this powder anymore.

I think what happened is that you developed a carbon ring in your barrel. You had bullets set close to rifling and it eventually made for bullets jammed into the carbon ring which skyrocketed your pressures. Even though blue dot loads are reduced loads they are still high pressure.

You are right about the double charge. The loading density is quite high and you would have easily seen this. Like you said it probably would have spilled out.

 

[Caballero59]

I think what happened is that you developed a carbon ring in your barrel. You had bullets set close to rifling and it eventually made for bullets jammed into the carbon ring which skyrocketed your pressures. Even though blue dot loads are reduced loads they are still high pressure.

You are right about the double charge. The loading density is quite high and you would have easily seen this. Like you said it probably would have spilled out.

This could very well be. Anyway, what loss. I'm 64 and I've had this rifle most of my adult life. Beautiful gun with such a trim stock, vixen enlaid in the bottom metal, deep bluing...you guys know the score.
I don't think I'm going to replace it. I have 100 rnds of once fired primed Lapua brass, Redding Bench Rest dies, 700 Hornady 50 gr spsx bullets. I think I'm going to sell it all and get out of the 223 business. I'm been enjoying my suppressed 6 BR so much and I think I'll concentrate on that.

 

[HelSako]

There could couple dozen reason for that, but Barm is propably on the right track. If you shoot reduced loads the brass throat doesn’t expand to chamber and start to fill with carbon and eventually jam catriche/brass. This will also increase pressure (With fast burning power it can rise rapit) Was it bad BUM and do you have the brass? we like to see pictures of that! If the action screws are loose, the stock will crack easilly and the ejector sometimes broke without reason. The rifle is propably in salvaged condition with minor work.

 

[Caballero59]

There could couple dozen reason for that, but Barm is propably on the right track. If you shoot reduced loads the brass throat doesn’t expand to chamber and start to fill with carbon and eventually jam catriche/brass. This will also increase pressure (With fast burning power it can rise rapit) Was it bad BUM and do you have the brass? we like to see pictures of that! If the action screws are loose, the stock will crack easilly and the ejector sometimes broke without reason. The rifle is propably in salvaged condition with minor work.

You folks have given me reason to check it out more carefully before I panic and throw it away so as to not be reminded of it. But you know. It's just a gun. Can't take it with you.

 

[HelSako]

DO NOT USE!!! reduced loads with pistol power (this is my opinion). The power, rifle and caliber is NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT!. IT IS NOT SAFE!. As gowyo states there is just right reduced caliber for that (22 hornet, fireball, wrm, lr …)

 

[stonecreek]

I think what happened is that you developed a carbon ring in your barrel.

"Carbon ring" in the barrel is a new one on me. It would seem that if such thing were the proximate cause of a pressure excursion sufficient to wreck a rifle that the pressures would increase incrementally shot by shot as the ring accumulated rather than go from normal on one shot to KABLOOWEEY on the next.

 

[tikkasako6.5]

Hello guys, I'm new here and have a sad story to tell. I purchased an L461 Vixen Deluxe in 223 about 35 years ago and it was my pride and joy. Recently, a hand load wrecked the gun. I was shooting reduced loads of Blue Dot and it was likely a powder bridging problem. The stock was split and a gun smith had to remove the bolt. The ejector was damaged in the bolt. The gun smith said that there appeared to be a very fine line on one of the bolt lugs suggesting set back. Other than the bolt, the action looks perfect. The stock could be re-glued with minimal evidence but still... It appears a replacement bolt will be very hard to find.

Can you folks please suggest what to do with this gun. The event hurt my feelings so much that I don't want to mess with it. These deluxe stocks are super trim compared to the standard and are hard to find. I think it merits some love. The barreled action looks perfect and it seems a crime to throw it away since a new bolt cannot be found. Ideas? Thank you.

Ive read other posts and the only thing I would do for sure, is to make the receiver totally irrepairable. There is probably micro-cracking in there somewhere. Dont sell it, break it, please.

 

[HelSako]

As Cabarelle said: the bolt start to stig before final round. This indicate pressure has rise already ealier

 

[bloorooster]

I’m liking the floor lamp idea…not really worth taking the chance to try and repair such catastrophic damage. Sell off the usable parts and walk … live to shoot another day

 

[mattimoose]

Put the gun back together the best you can and turn it into a floor lamp for your man cave. I thought about doing this years ago to one of my Mosins till I realized how much the damn things are bringing lol!

Did you blow-up that Mosin?

 

[pecosbill]

Did you blow-up that Mosin?

No, I bought a bunch when they were $79 (US) each at Big Five Sports. I bought both rifles and carbines, and some m44s too.

 

[mattimoose]

No, I bought a bunch when they were $79 (US) each at Big Five Sports. I bought both rifles and carbines, and some m44s too.

Right-on.I wish I had bought more in the good old days.M39s were 69.00 and 28/30s 59.00! I have never seen a Nagant Blow-up and I am curious because I don't see a lot of engineering into gas escape beyond the ring around the bolt face.

 

[mattimoose]

You folks have given me reason to check it out more carefully before I panic and throw it away so as to not be reminded of it. But you know. It's just a gun. Can't take it with you.

Catastrophic failure is not always the end. I have seen a few and you would be surprised. Non destructive testing can be accessed and if nothing is cracked or upset, there is no need to scrap. I don't know so much about Blue dot but I have seen double charges of unique and a mischarge of Tite-group for L'il gun in a .22 hornet that put a flattened primer into the center of my friend's arm! Not a SAKO, but an "event" nonetheless.(Savage 219). The chamber was stretched but the gun is fine. It is now a .222 and works really good.

The same operator made a similar mistake in the 60's with a Husqvarna 98 and sheared off the front lugs where the back one stayed in and the bolt bent-itself upwards like a Luger Toggle. In that case the gun was not usable. A competent gunsmith will let you know if it's good to go. Bullseye was another nasty culprit in reduced loads; and was the go-to propellant in Viet-nam for sappers to sabotage Viet Cong ammo stores. They would take a couple of rounds out of the cache and pull the bullets and replace the charge with a case full of Bullseye. There was a Revlon nail-polish that mimicked the water sealant perfectly to avoid detection. These rounds wrecked AKs and hopefully the man behind them.