Did Sako Ever Offer 223 Rem in L469 Actions or L46 Actions Modified by Sako for 222 RemMag?

[paulsonconstruction]

cmjr:
Had the same problem with Lil' Gun in my mini-mauser Fireball. Excellent velocity, but would have those occasional flyers. My theory is that Lil' Gun doesn't fill the case very well & this is causing inconsistent ignition because the powder flops around and lays in the case haphazardly. When I get my L46 Fireball back from the smith I am going to try powders that fill the case above 90%. IMR 4198 gave me excellent accuracy but was about 300 FPS slower. A buddy of mine has a CZ 527 in the K version and for him Lil' Gun is THE powder. He can put 20 rounds into a quarter @ 100 yards with no flyers with 13.5 gr pushing a 40 V-max @ 3150. He fireforms with 13.2 gr & gets nearly the same accuracy. Es is under 40! My M78 Hornet is a basket case when it comes to accuracy. It would always throw 1 out of 3 shots 2" to 3" away from the other two that were 1/2" apart. Head space was about .010" fat. I peened the lug and got it down to about .006" and it shot a lot better. So much for Finnish craftsmanship. Debating on setting the barrel back and re-headspacing or just building a 19 Calhoon. This is the third Sako Hornet I have owned over the years based on their rimfire action & none of them have had reliable feeding or good accuracy. I'd try a L46 Hornet if I could find one and see if I could get it to shoot like a CZ. Just hate that hangy down mag the CZ's have & the bolt handle/scope clearance problems or I'd have one. My relationship with the Hornet is a love/hate thing. I just keep searching & spending to find one that will actually shoot where you are aiming. Am I the only frustrated Hornet owner out there?

 

[blackjack]

Hello cmjr,
Love the .221 Rem "Fireball" project. I am having to wait for one year before work can start on my L46 project. The reason for the long wait is because I am having Steve Bowers do the job, and just about every one who wants quality work goes to Steve. It is just a waiting game.
Unlike you blokes in the U.S. of A, we in the U.K. do not have the number of Rifle - Smiths to carry out quality work. Also with our very strict Fire - Arms laws, us shooters are sadly in a minority.
Regards Blackjack AKA Mike {The Limey} Southern England. United Kingdom

 

[stonecreek]

AA-2200 is once again available from Accurate Powders. Anyone who shoots a .221 Fireball should grab an eight-pounder while they can.

Love-hate is a kind description of the Hornet. I have a highly reworked (by a previous owner) Ruger M77/22H with a Krieger barrel, K-chamber, and replacement trigger. After working up a load for it, I was giddy at its accuracy and made a sport of taping pennies to the 100 yard target to see how close to the middle of the penny I could make a .224" hole. Then one day everything just went to hell. I checked the action screws. I checked the bore. I checked the powder, the primers, the bullets and the cases. I sent the scope back to Leupold. In short, I checked everything I could find and although it finally settled down a bit, I've never gotten it back to where it was. I'll swear, at one time you could cover every single shot of a five shot group with the target dot on the crosshair, but no more!

I've had better luck than Paul with my M78 Hornet. It won't do what the Ruger once did, but it will hold minute of prairie dog at 125 or 150 yards.

Then I chanced into a pristine Oregon Kimber Model 82. Using all of the AA-1680 that will fit under a 40 grain Hornady V-Max, this little jewel will run with the best of them. I'm just holding my breath in fear that it might go south on me also. TIme will tell.

Little rifles are addictive, aren't they?

 

[cmjr]

Blue Dot loads in a 223.....be still my beating heart!! Looking for a reduced load in a 223 some buds over on Saubier steered me to Blue Dot. First time I tried Blue Dot in a 223 was with 12grs with a 40gr Vmax. Pulled the trigger and thought for a second I had a squib load. With ear muffs, not electronic, I couldn't hear it, pretty sure it went off but with all the noise at the public range.... Hmm...pulled the bolt, yep the bullet was gone. Check my spotting scope, 1" low at 100yds. I proceded to shoot 3 - 5 shot groups, all 1" low that agged just under .5". Told my buddy at the range to try it. Same puzzled look, same great group, recoil and report like a 22mag, he was amazed. That load chrono'ed at just under 2600fps. I never go into a PD patch without a couple hundred rounds of Blue Dot loads and a rifle set up for 100yd peekers!

 

[sakotex]

In my 17 Ackley Hornet, 1680 pushes 20gr vmax 3500fps and 1/2 moa as fire-forming load. It seems pretty quiet to my ears. 221FB with LilGun is not bad, but noticebly louder than 17AH.

 

[paulsonconstruction]

My M78 Hornet was never as accurate as your Ruger, Stonecreek, but it's performance changes. One day it will shoot 1" groups, then another day it will be almost 3". I have done everything except send it up on the space shuttle. I think I'll just put it in the dark recesses of my safe & find something different in that class. Just loose all interest if the weapon is not accurate.
My manuals don't have data for AA 2200. What is a starting load for a 40 grainer? What's max?
Where can I get load data for Blue Dot in a 221 Fireball? Maybe I can have quiet little varmint slayer & a 250 yard tack driver all in one gun just by changing loads!

 

[stonecreek]

Paul,

I checked the Accurate reloading site, but even though they have just released a new lot of AA2200 they seem to have neither the old data nor any new data. I have some 2200 data printed off at home, so I'll scan it and post it sometime in the next day or so.

I'll also PM you the Blue Dot data from the experimenter who worked it up. I don't think there is any for the Fireball, so you just have to judiciously start low and work up to your desired velocity, assuming that velocity is somewhere 85% or below typical maximum velocities with a given bullet. That is the way I came up with my Blue Dot load for the K-Hornet and I've been very happy with it.

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Thanks, Stonecreek, you are the man!

 

[hawki]

I'll try to throw in my two pennies for SakoTex!
No, the 223 was not offered simply because the dates Sako made the 46/469 the .223 wasn't in use in the U.S. yet and twists were slower until the L461, meaning the 55 gr. 223 military loading was about borderline useless.
It showed up in the later 1960's. I am no Sako historian for sure, but I don't even think they made L461's in 223 until the 70's; I could truly be off on that one.
As to pressure: the 223 is loaded to higher pressure because it would not achieve the ballistics the military was seeking without doing so, which just so happened to be the ballistics of the 222 Magnum, which would not function in the Eugene Stoner rifle (M-16) due to length. Today this is humorously not an issue, since AR platforms now handle the 308 Winchester.
I have some IMR powder data for the 223 from 1969 and all loads are under 52,000 CUP, or the same as the 222 Mag. Most loads are 100 fps less than the Magnum.
Note also the 222 and 222Mag had been chambered in single shots, the Anschutz (222), and the single lug Savage 340. They are saddled to the pressures they have been given, even though in any Sako Vixen they can be loaded to the pressures of the 223.

 

[hawki]

I'm showing US adoption of the 223 was in 1964; the last date for the 46/469 is 1962.

 

[stonecreek]

Hawki: This thread is an oldie but a goodie. We strayed a long way from the original question about whether the L46 was ever chambered in .223. You are absolutely correct that it was not, due to the L46 having been discontinued in 1961 (the last of them appear to have been made from inventory parts in 1962), while the .223 wasn't commercially introduced by Remington until at least a couple of years later.

As to when Sako first chambered the .223, there are a few "Bofors" marked .223's floating around, but not many, in my experience. Most people place the date of the last "Bofors" marked Sakos at around 1968, so it would appear that some .223's are at least that early. The .223 didn't overtake the .222 in popularity until sometime in the late 1960's or early 1970's as surplus brass, and later, surplus ammunition began showing up on the market.

 

[hawki]

stonecreek,
I never have seen a "Bofors" marked 223, so my instincts were that it showed up later.
That's why I like this site! Lots of folks who know their stuff.

As an interesting note, I have an older Layne Simpson article about the 22 Hornet from 1983 where he shows the 222 as the most popular 22 cf, then the 223, and 22-250, in dies sales and domestic production.:bigsmile3: It hasn't been "dead" for that long; thank goodness Sako made a pile of them.
You probably meant the 222 Mag!

 

[blackjack]

Hello Sako Friends,
To all who have re-barreled L46 & L461 actions {Receivers}, did any one have their Sako rifle actions blue-printed? e.g. barrel threads re-cut, bolt lugs lapped, actions trued ect ect. I know the Remington 700's are easier to blue-print because of the cylinder roundness of the action, where as the Sako's have the integral recoil lugs and flat bottom, and there for not so much can be blue-printed. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Regards Blackjack AKA Mike {The Limey}

 

[hawki]

blackjack,

I don't think its necessary unless the gunsmith specifies it.

Sakos genuinely have better tolerances than Remingtons, IMO. I have seen Remingtons with only one lug contacting; never on a Sako.

 

[blackjack]

Hello Sako Blokes,
Any one ever had a Sako L46 or L461 Blue-Printed? eg Threads re-cut, Front face of receiver trued, Bolt lugs lapped, Action trued ect ect. I know the Remington 700 is easier to Blue-Print due to the cylindrical nature of the receiver, where as the Sako receiver has the recoil lug and flat bottom. Any input will be greatly appreciated.
Regards Blackjack AKA Mike {The Limey}

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Blackjack:
I asked my smith to check the actions on all of the L46 & L461's I have had rebarreled. Everytime he said there was nothing he could do to make them any better than what Sako did at the factory. Unless you have an action that is a "bad apple" blue printing probably won't be required. I doubt Sako let very many "bad apples" get out.